TGB 3.0 - Welcome Back to Tier 1

Simulador de robo
Probabilidades: 0% – 0% – 0% más
Derivado de
The Great Builders 95 75 37 1.0
Inspiración para
NW Stag 2 2 0 1.0
NW + Stag 0 0 0 1.0

Dydra 1467

Do you want a short write-up, or a long one? Who am I kidding, of course you do! (????)

I haven't posted a TGB deck for a while for different reasons. Mostly because Martell were being potent (and I dare say they are my favorite house lore wise), because Baratheon Fealty was just stronger than TGB, because NW were missing cards to support the defensive archetype and others.

Right now though, we have all the pieces to make The Great Builders work as intended.

Main House:

  • You would notice that I've changed the main house from Baratheon to NW. This is for several reasons, but mostly because now you would have the means to make Old Bear Mormont work, as well as A Meager Contribution and White Tree to support you in lowering the opponent numbers of chars and events. Only thing I'd argue that supports this deck from Bara side currently is The Red Keep. Hence my choice.

Characters:

Plots ( Here stuff gets interesting!):

  • For the Watch! is a solid card for a Wall defense deck. Think it will be in these decks forever. Combos really nice with The Shadow Tower. Opponent my try to "cheese" you when he knows that you have Dolorous Edd in hand thinking that he would dodge 2 bullets with 1 shot ( making the first challenge INT ), however u jump in, win the challenge, return Edd and trigger The Shadow Tower. Pure win.

  • 2x Building Orders .... Before going "WTF??!!?" in your mind, let me share that I was running 1 in my first test games and that was a mistake. Considering the control archetype, finding that one Craven, Milk of the Poppy, Old Bear's Raven on time is just so critical.

You have 24 cards ( ~40% of your deck ) as targets for these plots and any other turn you might need a certain attachment or Location. Many of them are 1x.

Let me put it like this. You have this great magic bag that contains a cure/solution for any other situation. You want to make sure that you draw what you need, or you might have lost your chance and died.

  • Here to Serve because I think that fetching Maester Cressen is more important than Confiscation, especially when he can cure several Martell Attachments and Milk. Also finding your Maester Aemon to soak Mil. Claim is just value.

  • Winter Festival is a solid choice. You should play this mid-game (turn 3 to 5) when you have setup your Wall. It can easily give a 4 power turn w/o and challenges won on attack. If you have Throne and Chamber, 6 power.

  • Varys's Riddle is just a great plot atm. Especially for opener. It will give you a solid gold, most likely win you initiative and mess up opponent with a [Summer Harvest](/card/04039. Only a Trading with the Pentoshi opening can "beat him", but I can't consider that a serious player would open with this, unless he knows their meta inside-out and that everyone opens with Riddle.

  • Rebuilding with Craven, Milk, Seen in Flames, Meager Contribution I feel it has enough targets to make this plot worth it. Also ... 5 gold!

Card choices that I'm looking into:

I'll really try to make a slot for 2xNightmares or 2xThe Hand's Judgment to reinforce the control.

Naval Superiority was actually in place of the 2nd Building Orders in sense it's great because you can mess up and starve your opponent really bad in the first 2 plots. However, I felt it was too RNG in deciding if your opponent would play a Summer opener, or a Kingdom/Edict. Once they knew that you have both plots it turns into a real mind-fk fest. :)

I'm strongly considering the idea of getting some draw via Messenger Raven. 2 of them ( or 3) might free up the 2nd Building Orders slot, although I can't think of anything that I can move out of my deck. Attachments and Locations are set in stone. Events pretty much as well. On the character side, I have to remove Bicons, or Icons in general, to get a card draw ... Hard to make the choice.

The deck might take some time for you to learn it, so please don't expect to pick it and be a beast in your first 2-3 games. Especially if you haven't played this type of decks. Setup and when to use your Building Orders is critical.

You can get back to me with some feedback or questions.

Cheers, Dydra

17 comentarios

Dembers 1

seems to be fun to play thanks for sharing!

Dydra 1467

Something that I forgot to mention that the deck is really fun to play and it's really smooth once you forgive it for the learning curve. :)

Skriker 1

I've seen several of your decks. I enjoy the write-ups and think the decks look fun and unique. Had a couple questions for you, admittedly I have little NW experience. What are you hoping for during setup? Anytime I've tried making a NW deck I get frustrated by the characters, it seemed i was playing from behind every setup. And this question gets asked far too often, but how resilient is the deck to The First Snow of Winter? Thanks.

Dydra 1467

@Skriker Generally the deck has a lot a lot of chars that will survive a FSoW effect. Also Seen in Flames and bouncing to hand your Milk/Craven if there were on some 3str char isn't bad at all. You can attach them on his big dudes that came in later.

About the setup, I'll urge you to just go and play the deck. Match-up knowledge is important in the game, but for a deck like this even more. A few general tips are to strongly consider draws with Old Bear. Wether if you will setup him as 1-7 or just keep him in hand while you open with 2-3 buildings and chuds. Reason is that while u may fetch any building with 2 Building Orders, that isn't exactly the case for Old Bear and I avoid running Summons. Gendry+ Throne is also something which u could keep as Setup. Especially if it's supported with Milk/Craven for your first turn. If you can get The Wall out with some Economy and 1 or 2 chud is a keep also. White Tree with other meaningful building/char is also a keep as it's the only way that you will be able to get 1gold and go 2nd on your first turn. Overall, the deck has a lot of great setups, as long as you know what your plan is ... And for that you need match up knowledge :)

Hope this helps!

Dydra 1467

Let me give you a specific example. Against a GJ player who i know/suspect is going for the regular stealth+unopppsed, although first tip I gave you was to strongly consider Old Bear draws, I'd be much more concerned with the amounts of Craven and Milk I have in my initial 7 cards, also Bicons. The reason is that although I have some anti/stealth tech, by the time I Voltron Up the Old Bear with his Raven on The Wall ... The GJ player could already be running away with the victory. :)

This is what I mean by match-up knowledge :)

HidaHayabusa 73

The economy seems a bit strange. You have huge costs (Wall, Bear, Melissandre) and many attachments/events that you also need to pay for. I also don't see any form of reset if the board gets out of hand. You could use a WIldfire Assault or stuff to help you stand against aggression. Didn't you have any problems with affording all those expensive stuff?

omgitsblake 178

This deck gave me PTSD when thrones first came out D:

Dydra 1467

@HidaHayabusa Honestly, I was a bit concerned about the economy going into my first games,because there is no pure "money plot". However, that was a false alarm. It turned out that in between 3x 5gold plots, White Tree, Meager and Sworn brothers (on top of the usual economy) is more than enough. I'd often end up going into Challenges with 1-2 or even more gold. If you can't fly with that, throw in Calling the Banners in there, but it's an overkill imo.

About the board resset, I'd avoid it in a deck like this. Generally the more bodies you have, the easier is to oppose and trigger the wall. You have decent control over enemy bombs and this leaves you only with low to medium curve to deal with, if he has swarmed the board. Only situation that this would really help you is if u are 3v5+, but thats pretty much the ideal situation for a Wild Fire. Also if you Wildfire, first player chooses icons first and if that's you, well ... This situation is what you call to shoot yourself in the foot. :)

@omgitsblake yeah, it was pretty crazy with just the core set out ;)

HidaHayabusa 73

I don't think it's something you can fix with plots to be honest. I gave this list a try and at early turns I need to make a choice of either laying the Wall and plan ahead (which means pretty much skip a turn), or get the Bear out along with his Raven especially against heavy Intrigue decks OR get Melissandre machine support. All those cost an entire turn to get in. Anyway, maybe I was just a bit unlucky.

Dydra 1467

Sorry, but if you are trying to get in the Old Bear with his Raven and the wall ( or whatever in fact) you are just too greedy. Basically you drop one strong piece a turn and control with attach or kneel for your gold left. There is no deck that will allow you to drop a 7coster and 4 cost building ( or mell) together with other stuff lol ... Even Lanni can't do that...

The Wall is hardly difficult to get in play as you have 2 plots that find it and secure the gold needed to put it in play. So if you are that starved for gold in your games, do your stuff and BO when u are ready for The Wall ( usually turn 2 or 3 for me ).

HidaHayabusa 73

Ehmm...no. I don't mean that. I mean that if you have all the pieces you mention in your hand, you need to decide which ONE and ONLY one of those you are going to play because it pretty much costs you the entire turn. Just as you say, since there is no way to get all of those together in, you are stuck on playing one card per turn, depending on your setup and whether you see Kingsroad or not. Just as I mentioned before, I've got some games under my belt with it (quite similar list) and quickly scrapped it, probably because my meta are Lanni, Martel, Tyrell/Martel and NW Choke.

Dydra 1467

I'm not going to argue for the sake of argue, but to me it sounds like you simply aren't cut to play these type of decks ... And that's fine

In General there is nothing wrong with being able to put 1 of those pieces per turn, as long as you know which is the right one, control and being able to plan ahead. Perhaps you are more into spitting out max amount of bombs and then steamrolling challenges ... That archetype won't last long imo :)

On the other hand you simply can't convince me that this is the most expensive deck ever and it can't be played because of that. First because I'm doing exactly that and second because there are much more expensive decks rampaging around.

HidaHayabusa 73

I am definitely not cut to play these type of decks, that's for sure.

Anyway, since I see you got defensive and all, I'll be waiting for you to post real results, rather than theory over how a list should work. Take it to a tourney, take it against people that spit out max amount of bombs, and let us know how it rolls.

Dydra 1467

Well, got a bit annoyed here, because this reminds me a bit too much of many conversations I've had on NetrunnerDB about economy with "pro" deckbuilders there, who haven't done anything but to netdeck 4life.

I'm 9-1 with this deck in f2f and octgn matches and you can be sure that I'll main deck this all the way to Schtalec, unless something that breaks it comes out. With Smalwood in the next chapter pack and the 2 NW cards in the Lanni box though, things look promising. :)

HidaHayabusa 73

Too bad, because I never said anything that resembled the conversations in Netrunned DB and your Pro friends. However, the whole theory did bring some memories back from my 20+ experience in CCG, LCG and mostly on competitive level, about pet decklists only tested in fishbowl meta and then writing long articles about stuff that happened on the sessions against imaginary opponents.

But, this doesn't seem to be the case here. So Keep us posted.

AdmiralKhan 2

@Dydra

As I really like the archetype and idea behind it I gave it a swing. Five games in it wasn't looking exactly stellar but decided to pull through, and if I didn't, try to figure out what I was doing wrong. After about maybe 15 or so games now I reckon I might have won a third to half of the total games (All OCTGN).

As regards the learning curve, you are correct it can be pretty brutal. You need to know other deck archetypes, be able to anticipate plots and know how to play around them using yours (Building Orders for attachments they're trying to discard the very same round, maesters, openers etc.).

But its greatest strengths are also its weaknesses. Sure, with this deck you can do some flashy maneuvers and stay ahead, but it can also fall dead on arrival. In my experience Pentoshi is still being run by quite a few (serious players on top of that!). Kings of Summer and Winter are all very fantastic, but I still have encountered more fealty, banners and Lord of The Crossing than either and a good portion of times it's a Pentoshi that hits the table. What alternatives are there? Winter festival? Into what could just as well be a summer plot? And this gets to the very point - This deck has a high skill cap and that's because it plays a reactive game to something with high variance, resulting in this deck itself experiencing quite the variance as, literally, not all cards are on the table.

I'll admit, the economy isn't necessarily bad but it's not at the level where you can bomb the board like a Lannister or a Stark fealty with its million reducers. I understand this is intended, but being only able to play out a few characters at the time while simultaneously not running a reset means that for every one character you get out, your opponent might be getting two and they'll be no worse off for it. Usually you'll get maybe a kingsroad and a meager off (or set up with a roseroad) so on a good day maybe 6 gold+Kings road which gets you a slightly bigger character plus some other shenanigans. On a bad day though If your opponent plays the Kings of Winter agenda and you ain't got Meager or White Tree things might be getting rough. Hopefully you can get 1 or 2 characters out, probably not Old Bear but that's ok. On a bad day you might not draw that econ or face a choke deck. The problem with barely getting anything out, when faced with a choke deck gets to the second problem: Draw.

There just isn't any excepting the plots. Sam's 1x which makes him more of a decoration than a mechanic. A reserve choke usually doesn't damage this deck too bad if you open with Varys's riddle as, at most, you'll be left with 4 cards at the end of the round. But intrigue challenges does hurt and Edd in all honour but after the first time he's no longer a surprise element. Also, towards the end alot of cards might also just be dead cards like duped locations, low-cost character or meager contributions. A The Watch Has Needs could go along way with all these high reserve plots and us desperately searching for Aemon. But my choice of example gets to the problem, it's not just that it's hard to draw them, but there's so few good counter cards.

It might be a reactive deck in a sense, but it's no counter deck. Excepting Cressen, this deck ain't got any attachment removal so if he's dead, discarded or milked it's just tough luck. No Hand's Judgement. No swords in the darkness. No watchers on the walls. No practice blades. Some milks and cravens. Martell icon removal and tears can really wreck this deck up. Sure, you can milk both Nymera and Thyene but they'll still have Tears of Lys, Nightmares, icon removal and what not.

As long as you can setup Mel early you can get ahead, otherwise you might have a bunch of R'hllor cards that by themselves are not too impressive. If I don't get Mel out, or something tragic happens to her, or Aemon etc. I make it maybe up to halfway or a little further before they start catching up. Board spam. Target kills. Nightmares. Dead hands. Catelyn Starks with Ice and Syrio (actually, that happened on first round and Aemon was short lived).

In the end it's not reliable enough I feel, there's too many variables that needs to align for it not too derail. That of course explains and justifies the skill level but even given that, one bad combo or event and it may turn south. Whereas maybe Night's Watch, arguably, are beginning to enter Tier 1 territory I can't say that goes for this particular archetype. On the other hand, maybe you are tier 1 material which can make this work - that's very possible - in which case I wish you all the best and hope you can show me what this deck goes for.

As regards the few credentials I have, I've played over some 400 games on OCTGN, maybe a 1/10 of that in person and then in tournaments, but in general I'd consider myself fairly scrub. That said, I also have some 300 Netrunner games and was playing some terrible amounts of horizontal NBN with tagging ICE (Gutenberg, Raven etc.), dedicated response teams and snares so I suppose that goes to show what kind of an idiot and/or c*** I am.

Dydra 1467

Thanks for the feedback @AdmiralKhan. It has been incredibly useful.

On my side I've been trying around different stuff in games this week. I've started leaning more towards Counting Coppers instead of a 2nd Building Orders ... perhaps throwing in a Trading with the Pentoshi there myself, not for a first turn, but just to have pure guarantee that I can drop Bear at any time...

Was rotating cards like Stinking Drunk and Messenger Raven, but I think Motley will end up being a good decision here. After my games, I have now 2 versions of the deck. One is similar to this, where I'm still trying to play Old Bear... the other is focused more on low-to-medium curve.

Old Forest Hunter might solve a few problems here as well, but then you have to step away from 3x White Tree and 3x A Meager Contribution .... Choices, choices ...

Will test further and update later if the low-to-medium curve is working out better, or Old Bear can still be good for me.